Sadaf Javed: Quiet Leadership

"When you say something as an introvert, it has weight. It changes the energy of the room."

If you've ever felt like the corporate world wasn't built for quiet leaders, this episode will change your perspective entirely. Many introverted professionals struggle with visibility and authenticity in leadership roles, but what if your natural tendencies are actually your greatest strengths?

In this episode of "Now, Near, and the Future," hosts Quinn Harrington and Naila Mir sit down with Sadaf Javed, Executive Leadership Coach and founder of Quiet Thrivers, to explore why introverted leadership might be exactly what today's chaotic business world needs most.

Sadaf, drawing from her decades of corporate experience at companies like Unilever, reveals the hidden advantages quiet leaders possess and shares practical strategies for thriving without changing who you are. She unpacks why "getting clearer" matters infinitely more than "getting louder."

In this episode, we explore:

• Why introverted leaders often outperform with self-motivated teams
• The visibility trap and how to reframe it as "speaking up in moments that matter"
• How hybrid work environments actually favor introverted leadership styles
• The physical workspace challenges that hinder quiet leaders
• Why organizations need to expand their diversity and inclusion efforts beyond demographics

Key takeaway: "You suffer more in imagination than in reality" - a Stoic philosophy that perfectly captures the internal struggles many introverted leaders face.

Whether you're an introverted leader seeking authenticity or an organization wanting to unlock the potential of all personality types, this conversation offers practical insights for thriving in corporate environments without compromising who you are.

Transcript

Welcome to Now, Now, and the Future. I'm Naila Mir.

Quinn Harrington (01:21.583)
And I'm Quinn Harrington. Today's episode is all about something that doesn't get enough attention. What? You said this is about quiet leadership?

Naila (01:26.77)
Quinn, Quinn, Quinn, why are you whispering?

Naila (01:33.2)
It's not that kind of quiet leadership. Clearly, clearly, clearly you haven't read Sardar's brief or my brief on this podcast.

Quinn Harrington (01:35.739)
sorry.

Sadaf (01:41.662)
You

Quinn Harrington (01:41.909)
I've been kinda busy, so my apologies.

Naila (01:44.082)
Well, like you were saying, today's episode is something that people don't often talk about, which is quiet leadership. And we're really interested in understanding more about why introvert leaders might just be the ones we need most in today's fast corporate world. So we will talk and jump into a bit more about corporate world. Today.

And we're very excited about this. We're joined by Sadef Javed, who I've known for over 15 years from our Unilever days. Yes, from Pakistan. So we're old friends as well. And we've worked together. So I'm quite interested in seeing what I missed when we were working together. So she's an executive coach, founder of Quite Thrivers, love the name, and someone who has made it her mission to shift the leadership narrative to help introverted leaders embrace their authenticity.

Quinn Harrington (02:15.384)
Wow.

Naila (02:39.12)
and thrive without changing who they are. Proving that thriving doesn't have to mean getting louder, it means getting clearer. With a background spanning decades in the corporate world, SADF understands firsthand the challenges introverted leaders face in environments that often favor extroverted leaders and styles.

Quinn Harrington (03:02.252)
Awesome, Sadov. It's so excited for you to be joining us today. Could you tell us a little bit about your journey, why you would want to become an executive coach, especially focused on introverted leaders? It's like a very interesting niche.

Sadaf (03:03.789)
Hello.

Naila (03:04.987)
Bye.

Sadaf (03:22.03)
Yes, I think before I get to that, the area of introverted leaders, the main pivot in all of this is that why would I move from marketing, the usual marketing job to executive coaching? Because that in itself was quite a transition for me, Quinn. that I was, I realized what was happening to my energy last two, three years of my corporate career. And I was seeing that

I would feel far more energized in conversations related to people development, growth in careers, helping my team in solving stakeholder issues, helping them to push their projects forward and ideas forward. And a lot of it had to do with them dealing with other people. So all of these things would give me far more energy versus

having a deep conversation about marketing, for example. And I had to kind of take a pause and listen because you enter that stage of your career where you want to take a bit more chances because you don't want to get too comfortable because if after 40 you're not going to take a chance, then I don't know when will you take a chance. So, and then I think it was also about personal situation as well. I was coming off my mat leave, so

priorities and flexibility, all of those things were coming in mind. So I kind of wanted to learn this properly and not just say, wake up in the morning and say, hey, I'm a life coach. Ask me what you want from me. I wanted to give it its dedicated time. And then that's how I stumbled into executive coaching. And as far as the introverted part is concerned, I think when you're having people conversations,

with your own team. You do a lot of self-reflection yourself. There's a lot of self-awareness that you get from other people. And you start putting yourself in certain boxes and also you start identifying your life patterns very well. And one thing I always knew was that it was not always very easy for me to

Sadaf (05:47.567)
push my agenda forward. I had to really think, prepare and plan to push it forward. For the person who was at the receiving end, never felt that I had that problem. I was never told I have a confidence issue. I was never told that you can't build relationships, but it was all very internal and physiological. And a lot of that physiology and a lot of that...

mental blocks would stop me from taking some chances in life. So being an introvert myself, I kind of wanted to break that cycle. Because when you carry all that burden into your next leadership role, you're going to transfer all that negativity and those doubts to the people who report into you. So feeling, being more authentic, it ended up having a different meaning for me.

being clear about what your strengths are, completely different interpretation came in my head afterwards. And I wanted to then double down.

Quinn Harrington (06:50.808)
You know, it's really fascinating that you had an idea of what you were projecting and some self-reflection about your external view, but you weren't necessarily getting that from other people. It wasn't reciprocated in terms of, yes, you lack confidence, yes, you need to develop this. It was almost like sort an internal conversation based on your own expectations about

what a leader should be. know, Naila and were talking about this a couple of days ago about how we're sort of straddled alignment between being introverts and extroverts and some of the things that, you know, we've personally done to try to compensate or even sometimes overcompensate for that introversion.

Naila (07:46.886)
Yeah, I was telling Quinn about the fact, in interviews, Sadaf, can you imagine? So people think I'm an extrovert, but actually I'm an introvert and my personality changes according to audiences and where I'm most comfortable and what I love doing. Interviews, it's the worst for me because going back to what you said, putting people in the box, I have a problem with that. And I feel when I go into an interview, they've already got a preconceived thought of who they want to have.

Sadaf (07:58.263)
Mm. Yeah.

Sadaf (08:08.205)
Hmm.

Naila (08:14.556)
coming into the organization and I like to be myself. So I've decided I'm going to do the interview, obviously not ramble in it, but I will do the interview being me. And if you like me for who I am, that's great. If you don't, we're not the right fit in the first place. And that kind of plays with my introvert, extrovert kind of personality. Same goes with you. So I want to know more because we work together at Unilever, right? So I want to know in different corporate spaces.

Sadaf (08:15.021)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Sadaf (08:24.588)
Hmm.

Sadaf (08:27.918)
Hmm.

Naila (08:43.484)
How did you manage being an introvert? What are those pivotal moments that made you, you know, get onto this path or shape to your path? How did you deal with those things? I know you talked about it just now a bit.

Sadaf (08:58.904)
So there are, I think, firstly, there is one thing I always knew is that if I have to present an idea and if I prepare really well, I know I'll do a great job. I'll rise to the occasion. You put me in front of 100 people and make me stand on a stage, I'll do fine.

Why? Because there are a few things behind it as an introvert. You prepare. You know your audience. You know the objective. You know the material. And you're kind of on your own. And there's a physical distance. So I didn't have that problem. That way I had an advantage where a lot of introverts might struggle. So, and the other thing was that I was always a bit stubborn about the way I used to interpret things.

And so as an introvert, initially when I started off my career, there was a lot of Sadaf, you need to be more visible because how will you get the next promotion? I want people to talk about you so that they pick you and say, she's the person we want in our team. And my instinctive reaction would be being rebellious and

telling them, are you trying to make me be someone I'm not? And kind of calling them out then there. And they would kind of go on the defensive. So it was also problem with the people who were giving me the feedback and it was also problem in my head that I was not listening to what they actually meant when they said it. I was too hung up on the words. And that kind of...

pivotal moment came not just through self-realization, I was sitting and thinking one day, but I got, I had some mentors and I remember this one mentor who very early on when I was just a management trainee on ILA in Unilever and it kind of stuck with me. And he was a very deep introvert, like really deep, but we respected him a lot because he was technically very sound.

Sadaf (11:20.59)
And I used to tell him that, my biggest issue is that this company is trying to change me, wants me to be very loud and go around advertising what all I've achieved. I can't do that. That's not me. And I wanted him to fully empathize with me and say, oh, good job. Keep fighting the good fight. But nothing like that happened. And he's like, I understand what you're saying, but you need to understand why the organization hired you. The organization hired you so that you can push ideas.

And if you want to push your ideas, then you have to present them, you have to talk about them. So don't get too obsessed about pushing yourself, push the idea. Because then you're doing a disservice to the organization and also to your team. The team that is around you, who either report into you or take inspiration from you, they want to hear your point of view. But you're going to stay quiet. So that's not gonna work.

Naila (11:59.762)
Mmm.

Sadaf (12:16.59)
So that kind of flipped it in my head that okay, I take that, but I need to do it in a way that I don't burn myself out because that's also very important for an introvert. The energy management part is very crucial. If you're not aware of it, then we burn out very quickly. If it's social engagement and interaction.

Quinn Harrington (12:37.474)
That's really interesting, the whole concept behind pushing the idea versus, know, sort of pushing the product versus pushing yourself. You're sort of doing the same by default. But for some people, their personality almost is their product. So it's sort of like all right here. So today you run Quiet Thrivers. What's an unexpected story about an introverted leader in today's corporate world?

Naila (12:37.819)
inches.

Sadaf (12:55.703)
Yes.

Yes.

Quinn Harrington (13:10.456)
Yes, like maybe one of your clients or something that you've heard of about someone who is a quiet thriver in this very loud world of business that we live in.

Sadaf (13:25.326)
So they're you know, the typical ones which are always related to the founders of Apple or some other tech organization. But where I get, I got the most amount of inspiration was from the Stoics. I find that very interesting. The Stoics, Seneca and Marcus Aurelius type people.

Quinn Harrington (13:48.452)
From who?

Quinn Harrington (13:53.823)
okay.

Sadaf (13:54.861)
Yeah, so I take a lot of inspiration from them. Why? Because even after so many years, whatever they're talking about are people problems, which are very true right now. And they always talk about calmness. They always talk about taking a pause while when deciding, deep thinking. And what is good to see now is that now you have people like Ryan Holiday and all kind of

making it mainstream and accessible for everybody. So in the current scheme of things, there are a lot of leaders. The thing with quiet leaders, Quinn, is that they're going to stay quiet. They're not going to do the big show. They're not going to present themselves. Sometimes for a shareholder, you have to, but what's important to see is what are they doing in their day-to-day? What are the people saying about them?

And I found, for example, I had a leader who when she joined my team, she was a VP, and she had a big team. She had a team of like 35, 40, 50 people stretched across the globe. And at all levels, right from a director to an assistant manager. But when she joined, she kept a 30 minute one-on-one with every single person.

Quinn Harrington (15:19.204)
That's tough to do. Do you have a favorite quote by one of those from one of the Stoics?

Sadaf (15:21.126)
super tough.

Sadaf (15:25.848)
So it's one which was you were kind of eluding to where just more about you suffer more in imagination than in reality. So for me, that's really...

Quinn Harrington (15:35.172)
Wow, I'm glad I asked that because now we have a title for this show.

Naila (15:40.05)
Scrap the one I care and came up with. You know that I was thinking about this Sadaf so I was like, is there a difference or is it the same thing? An introverted leader and a quiet leader.

Quinn Harrington (15:47.704)
You be quiet there, Nyla.

Sadaf (16:01.932)
So listen, what I'll be, what I'm very clear about and I, the introversion, extroversion, there a lot of conversations around it that what it is, I follow what Susan Cain says and it is purely towards energy management. So for an introvert, they basically, in social interactions, their energy levels go down.

but with extroverts when they're in a social interaction their energy levels go up. So that's that's the, and it's all very, I would say it's very physical. It's, you can feel it. Yeah. So after this conversation, I will feel drained, but I know how to bring it back up. I need a bit of my own time and it will come back. That's what it is. Just a battery. It does come down. And also there is no such thing as a pure introvert or an extrovert.

I think this Adam Grant says this that if somebody is a pure introvert or an extrovert, then they're psychopaths. It's not possible. There's no puritant in this. Adam Grant has this organization. So he's done a lot of work on figuring out motivators for introverts and extroverts.

Quinn Harrington (17:07.13)
Who is Adam Grant? Yeah, you throw a lot of names around here that I'm feeling kind of a little bit dumb, like I don't know who that is.

Naila (17:12.882)
You

Quinn Harrington (17:26.586)
Mm-hmm.

Sadaf (17:26.676)
and in what situations do they thrive. So he's an organizational psychologist. And he did this very interesting pizza study or something it's called. And what they found out was, it sounds very obvious, but it's interesting how you develop teams and organizations. He kind of did this experiment and what it clarified is that introverted leaders, they are able to get better results from teams.

that are very self-motivated versus an extrovert leader. They do very well when the team is not very motivated. It's very obvious. But what it also tells you is that an introverted leader, because they do a lot of listening and deep thinking, they allow and give space to the people in their team to tell them about their ideas and how do they want to solve a problem. And hence, they can help them to thrive.

But an extroverted leader, if they end up coming in a team, which is already very motivated, an extroverted leader is going to come in and start telling them what to do. You do this, you do this, you do this, you do this. And they're like, but what about my idea? But an extroverted leader, it's like, it's better to have opposites versus the same in this case.

Naila (18:44.366)
Quinn Harrington (18:45.582)
Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, mean, everyone on my team is extremely self-motivated, and I almost feel at times annoyed if I have to motivate you. know? It's like, where's your hunger drive? know? I mean, there are times when we all struggle, especially for it's a common struggle with...

Sadaf (18:59.31)
Good problem to have.

Naila (18:59.354)
Naila (19:06.49)
I mean,

Sadaf (19:11.682)
Of course.

Quinn Harrington (19:13.624)
you know, a particular client, which has nothing to do with the project I'm working on right now because everyone's fully motivated and ready to finish this one up.

Sadaf (19:21.998)
Of course not.

Naila (19:24.37)
So you make sad if you're making me think now because I Just said I think I'm an intro and an extra right but in social gatherings my energy is actually high But in the corporate world depending on who's in that room My energy level could be low Especially and I've got this thing we talk about imposter syndromes and people who I think are louder or stronger And then you start questioning yourself. my god, they're better, but that's okay sometimes

Sadaf (19:46.38)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Naila (19:53.03)
because it complements what you are. So now you're making me think, I, am I, what am I? What am I? Right? It's a bit confusing for me now because I think, yeah, I'm not an extrovert. I'm an introvert when it comes to social gatherings at all.

Sadaf (19:59.247)
you

Sadaf (20:10.318)
Yes, so, Naila, you know, it also comes from... And I would like to challenge your perception because in this case, what usually happens is that, you know, this is our preconceived notion that a charismatic leader will walk in the room and wow everybody, they will have a big presence and it will be very obvious that this person means business.

Naila (20:17.116)
Good.

Sadaf (20:38.45)
and everybody will pay attention to them. So we have this certain criteria of what a leader should look like. And if we are not like that, then we start saying things like, maybe I'm an ambivert, or maybe I'm an introvert, or maybe this, maybe that. So that perception in itself is a bit flawed. So there are a of extroverted people who have a confidence problem.

or suffer from imposter syndrome. Similarly, there are introverted people who have no confidence problem. Yeah, they can present in a room, not a problem. So there is that perception that we have that plays with it. yes, and then, know, this thing about charisma itself, that is something that really bothers introverted leaders because when they're about to enter into that leadership role,

Naila (21:16.657)
Hmm.

Sadaf (21:34.144)
and they want to be a charismatic leader and they don't know how because they feel that agency of charisma lies only with extroverts, then that's where some confusion starts coming in. But the good news is charisma could be learned as well.

Naila (21:47.772)
Mm.

Naila (21:51.242)
okay, we're going to talk about this because I had a problem with leadership styles in a company that I was working with. I questioned, I was questioning myself as a leader, whether I would grow and become a director. And my mentor said, actually, what are you worried about? Because you're getting feedback from one person versus the many people that are giving you feedback about how good you are at your role and how good you are at managing teams and managing projects. So what you should keep note is when you walk out of a room,

Sadaf (22:01.73)
Hmm.

Sadaf (22:13.678)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (22:20.814)
you've influenced and you've changed mindsets through your passion and your purpose in life. Don't worry about one or two negative comments that are impacting what you think yourself as a leader. So that took me quite a bit and now I just, I am who I am. So I'm authentic to myself. I like to be who I am and show up as Naila because that's all about me, right? So you talked about that Quinn as well.

I am my brand as well. we've talked about, Sadaf's helped me with branding, you've helped me with branding where I've got this confusion. But yeah, I keep authentic about it. And you talk a lot about authentic leadership as well. Authenticity in being a leader. What does that really mean for introverted leaders? Authenticity and what are the problems? Can you unpack a bit about that?

Sadaf (23:14.638)
So one big issue that comes with authenticity is that we end up feeling that authenticity is about this is me and this is who I am, take it or leave it. And we usually react this way when on the other side some feedback comes towards us which is asking us to be someone we are not.

And our usual reaction is that I can't be this because this will be against my authentic self. And that is something that people call emotional labor or the authenticity trap, whereby you feel the pressure to conform to certain societal pressures which go against your personality.

and, but the issue with that is that if we end up doing, staying stuck in one place and keep holding on to who we are, then how will you grow? How will you move forward? How will you challenge yourself to adapting to situations that will be good for you in the future? and therefore it's more of a reframe that you need in your head. So if you say that

If there is a certain situation and somebody is asking you to be something or show more of a certain behavior, our usual reaction is, can't do this, this is against my authentic self. Instead, you need to kind of get to the idea is that, what is it that I can do to hold on to my authentic self while at the same time being able to thrive in this moment?

now.

Quinn Harrington (25:09.806)
Yeah, I definitely want to hear more about that. But before we move on to continue that conversation, let's take a minute and go around the room. And that's the segment where we're all just kind of take maybe a minute and talk about what we're up to. I'll start with you, Nyla.

Naila (25:25.541)
Okay.

What I've been around the room, what have we been up to lately? Other than this podcast, I was getting ready for this podcast and I actually thought I had a meeting at 1.30 but it was at 1 o'clock. So that's happened to me recently but I just got over my baby's first birthday and it took me planning. Sadaf was there, it took me some planning. I didn't sleep over the weekend but I'm glad it's over. She loved it, she enjoyed it with her cousins.

Quinn Harrington (25:29.88)
Yeah. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (25:42.76)
huh.

Naila (25:58.224)
and I didn't see her for that whole moment because she was going around the room with everyone being herself. So that's what I've been. I have some photos. Yes.

Quinn Harrington (26:04.804)
Did you bring any photos?

Quinn Harrington (26:09.147)
Go ahead and try to, you can share your screen real quick if you want to show us a couple.

Naila (26:14.316)
okay. Screen, how do I do this? Like, share the screen.

Quinn Harrington (26:18.718)
It's down at the bottom, that little share button. You should be able to see that. Well, when I was looking for that set off, what have you been up to lately?

Naila (26:22.738)
Select a tab.

Sadaf (26:30.478)
Besides battling in-house germs because of my toddler spreading them. I said, they're there. Here we go.

Quinn Harrington (26:39.415)
they are little germ factories. here we go. look at that. That is so lovely.

Sadaf (26:46.798)
Aww, super cute.

Naila (26:48.518)
Yeah, so that's our birthday. It was a princess theme. She loved it. I got scared of that little firework thing, safety, and she's enjoying her food. I'm not showing the picture of Sothef.

Quinn Harrington (26:49.146)
What an adorable family.

Quinn Harrington (26:53.452)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (26:57.09)
yeah.

Quinn Harrington (27:01.604)
Did you get her a smashcake?

Sadaf (27:02.25)
Ha ha ha!

Naila (27:04.85)
we did that on her actual birthday which was 24th and we did the big party on the 26th yeah yeah so that's it

Quinn Harrington (27:07.77)
okay. Yeah. That was my favorite, you know, from my latest daughter's first birthday was the smash cake and just everywhere. Yeah.

Sadaf (27:13.837)
Yeah.

Sadaf (27:21.336)
That's the best.

Naila (27:23.932)
Back to you Sadaf, you were saying about the germs.

Sadaf (27:27.448)
Yeah, besides the German, think good conversations with a lot of people diving deeper into this area. And yeah, looking forward to some partnerships that might come up after a few months. yeah, getting busier, but good busy. Looking forward to it.

Naila (27:45.554)
Good. Good. I do love all the posts you put out there. So I do follow you and all the Instagram. I'm like, my God. So she's not only got her marketing hat, she's doing this quite thriving, setting the brand. I need to learn from her.

Sadaf (28:00.706)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (28:03.866)
Awesome. Yeah, I'm just really kind of thinking about vacation and what that looks like. So the funny thing is I have all these great ideas, but I have no cash at the moment. I will have cash in about 30 days. So it's like, do I book now and spend money I don't have or do I, you know, just wait and be responsible? And I go like day to day. One of my...

Sadaf (28:10.838)
You

Sadaf (28:20.847)
nice.

Sadaf (28:25.588)
Hahaha

Quinn Harrington (28:32.868)
clients rented this fabulous vacation home in Barbados and I already pushed back my trip to to Europe till the fall so But now like Barbados is calling so I was just like You know, it's only about seven hundred fifty dollars to fly there. So I don't know but that's like next now it's like next weekend so also I also I keep keep forgetting that I have to renew my passport because it expired so

Naila (28:36.646)
Mm-hmm.

Sadaf (28:37.133)
Mmm.

Naila (28:53.062)
Just do it!

okay.

Sadaf (28:56.738)
Ha ha ha.

Sadaf (29:02.048)
Mmm.

Quinn Harrington (29:02.65)
I gotta get on it. I gotta get my shit together because I'm like missing out on opportunities all over the world. know, Nidalee's like, yeah, we're going to Portugal. We're going to, you know, Fiji.

Naila (29:02.672)
they...

Naila (29:10.642)
Come on.

Sadaf (29:13.329)
Ha!

Naila (29:14.962)
I'm going to Morocco. I'm gonna go Paris soon. South of one of my... I'm going to Paris. I'm gonna go to Amsterdam and then maybe Portugal.

Quinn Harrington (29:19.802)
Of course you're going to Morocco.

Quinn Harrington (29:27.128)
Yeah. I mean, you guys travel to other countries like we travel to other states here in America. And it's like, yeah, I'm going to Georgia. Yay.

Sadaf (29:27.358)
nice.

Naila (29:29.105)
Let's see.

Naila (29:39.858)
That's what we love and it's being in London, it's so convenient to get there, you know. But hey, so we've got the next segment, right? So, yes, Quinn, that's you kicking off.

Sadaf (29:44.478)
Yeah. Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (29:45.038)
Yeah.

Quinn Harrington (29:49.794)
Yes.

That's me kicking off. Let's move into the near future. Sidof, if someone's listening today is an introverted leader struggling with visibility or authenticity, how might that change in the next three to five years? I could think of a few things that will change, but I really want to hear from you.

Sadaf (30:13.678)
I think there is no struggle. There shouldn't be any struggle. The struggle is... Because the reason why I don't want to call it a struggle, because then it comes from a place of that introverts are some sort of victims or deeply misunderstood. A lot of it is in our control. A lot of it we can manage. And actually...

Naila (30:34.514)
Mm-hmm.

Sadaf (30:40.494)
Given the current state of where the world is, essentially exploding, bit of calmness and deeper thinking is the need of the hour. And it will only help. So I would say the visibility as a word, it sounds very icky to introverted leaders and they need to

listen to it but they need to quickly interpret it in their heads. That visibility will be about me not staying quiet in moments that matter.

because there are lot of times they do that and they're doing a disservice. So you have to keep asking that if I say something right now, will this make things better or not? And 90 % of the time it would make things better. So just say it. And people who are deep thinkers, when they say it, it has a bit of weight. It changes the energy of the room.

It has happened to myself also. I don't want to kind of compliment myself in there, but a lot of people who met me after 15 years and I respected them a lot, and they told me this, that you were always the quiet one, but when you said something, suddenly the energy will shift. And I used to feel that, God, I'm talking right in the end, what's happening? I need to say something, I need to say something.

Naila (32:18.118)
Hmm.

Sadaf (32:20.354)
But people who are sitting there, they view us as completely different. So we have to use that. It's our strength.

Quinn Harrington (32:29.678)
Makes a lot of sense, you know, and I also think about, you know, certain leaders, thought leaders that I respect, they don't say a whole lot, but when they do, I'm 100 % dialed in because I know I'm about to get a little bit of piece of genius, you know, kind of like talking to you, Sadov, so that's why I'm not talking very much. It's not just because it's like, you know, the crack of dawn here in Florida.

Naila (32:31.089)
Yeah.

Sadaf (32:43.373)
Yeah.

Naila (32:47.89)
That's true as well.

Sadaf (32:48.909)
You

You

Naila (32:54.012)
That's true, and you're right, because it's always, or often happens to me, right? Because I'm in the meeting, I'm a listener, right? Obviously, if I'm leading a meeting, I'm leading it, right? So I'm doing the talking. But when it's a bigger group, it's a brainstorming session, I'm sitting there listening, I do have points. And then what happens is, by the time it's come to the time that I want to speak, my points have already been spoken, like all my thoughts that I had, someone else has already spoken it, right? So I'm a bit late to the party.

Sadaf (33:09.102)
Hmm.

Sadaf (33:17.624)
You

Sadaf (33:21.762)
Hmm. Hmm.

Naila (33:23.378)
But that's just about me and I mean I need to think about those things but thinking about the near future what about organizations? So how do they need to change or how do they need to create environments for different styles of leadership especially if we're on this topic of introverted leaders you know so that they feel that they are not just accepted but they're valued.

Sadaf (33:46.733)
Hmm. One thing which I would want to call out is which has something to do with the physical space of an organization. Because now that we have open offices, it's become quite a problem. Open spaces are not too good for introverted leaders. It distracts them quite a lot and it puts a lot of pressure on them. So there has to be some sort of rethink on open spaces itself for introverted people in general.

Naila (34:01.138)
Okay.

Sadaf (34:15.918)
But that's more of a physical... Nah, I mean I hate them as well.

Quinn Harrington (34:16.314)
I personally hate them. I mean, I remember when we first moved to cubicles back in the 90s when I had a real job and I was just like, this is just awful. I was like, what are we really saving here?

Sadaf (34:28.174)
Yeah, I don't know what they were saving. I think they just like to keep an eye on everybody at the same time. It's just easier that way to keep track. Yes, we are human resources at the end of the day. So there has to be some thought around it. But more than that, the bigger point is that if organizations are talking about diversity and inclusion, then

Naila (34:28.881)
Yeah!

Quinn Harrington (34:39.423)
They're just cheaper, let's be honest.

Naila (34:42.297)
Hahaha

Quinn Harrington (34:45.145)
Mm-hmm.

Naila (34:55.666)
Hmm.

Sadaf (34:57.556)
It is beyond the ethnicity and gender. It is also about people with different personalities itself. It is also important that if you have a certain leadership criteria on what will it take for a person to become a leader, then you do tell them what it is, but at the same time, help them to get there by

Naila (35:08.252)
Yeah.

Sadaf (35:26.318)
kind of co-creating a path with them instead of just saying do become this then they will resist they don't know how to do it so you know helping with them with the right mentors and coaches that will that is always useful and the introverted people themselves the leaders who are introverts they need to reach out they're kind of hidden in their little thing they have to kind of come out reach out identify those people and kind of take them under the wing

Naila (35:33.042)
Mm.

Naila (35:47.782)
Right!

Sadaf (35:56.525)
The more we do it, the better it is. And we have so many examples of, know, this person was an introvert, but then they became a CEO and XYZ. That's fine, but that person must have gone through a lot to eventually get there itself. And what are those things that he did? That's very important to understand from the CEO, that what did they do to eventually get there?

So yeah, sharing those stories, giving them a system that works for them, creating physical spaces where their ideas can thrive, I think those things become quite important for an organization to consider.

Naila (36:38.908)
think we need have another conversation on leaders and leadership as well because you know when you think about growth, growing in an organization doesn't necessarily mean in a leadership position. Do get what I mean? So there are leaders that don't have to have teams but you're still leading a certain area in terms of expertise but that's a whole different conversation and I have you know thoughts around that but...

I wonder if we're going to jump into the future, right? Before we jump into the future, we have something called Across the Pond. And this is great because Quinn is in the US and we're both in the UK. Had you been sitting in Pakistan, we would have had the three way across the pond. But we usually ask each other something that we don't know or we are curious about from across the pond. So Quinn, when was the last time you visited the UK, first of all?

Sadaf (37:18.697)
Hahaha

Sadaf (37:25.902)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (37:33.745)
I think it was in 2013 when I met you.

Naila (37:37.842)
You know what we need to recall this of 2003 when I met you because a lot changed in that time, right?

Quinn Harrington (37:43.748)
Yeah, a lot.

Naila (37:46.308)
A lot has changed, yeah. I keep thinking because it's a... Sadef wasn't here, no, Sadef, you didn't come to UK in 2013.

Sadaf (37:53.454)
I came 2014. 2014. I came 2014.

Naila (37:57.412)
Okay, okay.

Quinn Harrington (37:59.771)
I do plan to get back for the finale of our first podcast season, which should probably be sometime this fall. So... Yes, yeah, absolutely. So, Springbank Holiday Falls on May 26th in the UK. What's this about cheese rolling?

Naila (38:06.62)
Yes.

We could do a party if we're doing really well.

Naila (38:25.926)
First of all, I totally forgot about the bank holidays, Sadaf. So we've got one on the next week, Monday, and we've got one on the 26th. And as a business owner, we hardly get holidays. So I'll be probably doing my expenses on the holidays. But did you ever hear about cheese rolling, Sadaf? so on the 26th of May, every year, in Gloucester,

Sadaf (38:30.99)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sadaf (38:39.63)
You

Sadaf (38:43.787)
No, what is that?

Naila (38:52.85)
Gloucestershire, oh my god, now I've got a tongue twister going. Gloucestershire, right? There's a cheese called Gloucestershire cheese, right? So in the town where it's made, every year on bank holiday, they have this competition where you stand on top of the hill, I can't remember the hill's name, something hill, and you roll down a little thing, a cheese, yeah, a cheese wheel barrel, and then you see who gets to the bottom first.

Quinn Harrington (38:55.386)
Gloss dish or sheer? Yes.

Sadaf (39:01.301)
Okay.

Sadaf (39:15.491)
Better.

Naila (39:22.566)
They're not interested in catching the cheese, they're just interested in getting to the bottom. And that's what the cheese rolling is about. I didn't even know about it. It's just for one city. So we don't do it in London, Quinn. We don't.

Sadaf (39:29.102)
Unbelievable Thank God

Quinn Harrington (39:36.856)
And they say Florida's a weird place.

Naila (39:40.274)
We have our weird stuff, we will do that in the next Cross the Pond.

Sadaf (39:40.464)
Hahaha

Quinn Harrington (39:43.803)
Yeah, there's like a whole series on our local news station called Only in Florida. Yeah, so, you know, man catches 20 foot python.

Sadaf (39:45.198)
you

Naila (39:51.579)
Really?

Sadaf (39:51.778)
Really? that sounds cool.

Naila (40:00.7)
well. Like for a hobby or just randomly had to happen to... let's not get into this.

Quinn Harrington (40:01.251)
It's a real thing.

Quinn Harrington (40:07.366)
no, we do actually have a legit python hunting season because it's an invasive species. know, exotic pet owners let it go, lose it or whatever, and pythons have no real natural enemies unless you count crocodiles and alligators. But yeah, so down, especially down on the Everglades.

Sadaf (40:17.623)
Hmm.

Quinn Harrington (40:33.274)
There's a season that you can go out and hunt python.

Sadaf (40:38.574)
Okay.

Naila (40:39.086)
It's not happening.

Quinn Harrington (40:39.438)
I hear they're pretty tasty.

Naila (40:42.195)
no. Well, I hardly eat meat that much so not interested.

Quinn Harrington (40:45.626)
Probably not the best place to start. All right, let's dive into the future here. I'm looking a little further out. It's crystal ball time, my favorite part of the show. Siddharth, how do you see leadership evolving in the next 15 to 20 years? Because technology will transform how we communicate. How will the corporate world evolve to different leadership styles?

especially choir are more introspective ones.

Sadaf (41:17.454)
It will be in their benefit because I think things like Zoom, they kind of totally changed the dynamic of how we see hybrid working. And then, which means that...

when you have lack of face-to-face and you are doing more virtual, you have to signal more and more deeper listening. You have to signal more of creating a psychologically safe environment. So for introverted leaders, they have the benefit. They're in front of screen. They don't have to physically share the space. So it kind of works. For them,

Naila (41:49.97)
Mm.

Sadaf (42:02.39)
So their strengths can bring out a meaningful change. So in the future, this is what, if it stays this way to some extent, it might not be a permanent thing, but I don't see that we ever going back to the usual five days in the office type situation. It doesn't feel necessary at all when things are okay. So these things become quite useful and I think it will become a strength.

So introverted leaders should very actively think about how can we talk about psychological safety in the environment when we are using hybrid mode of working. What is it that I'm going to say to make them feel that? Because when you are, for example, when a town hall happens in an organization where the CEO kind of talks down to everybody, you don't have the chance to connect to the CEO because they might seem unapproachable.

Naila (42:40.37)
Hmm.

Sadaf (42:59.278)
to you, but in a Zoom, they're right there. You can ask a question. So it's a bit of a test of all the CEOs as well that suddenly my people are very close to me. So you have to think more and more about how will you create an environment that they feel that they can share their opinion without feeling that they'll get reprimanded later on.

Naila (43:20.55)
Yeah, I mean, that's my space, right? Town halls and looking at different ways of engagement. But you're right about hybrid working and after COVID, the spur of, you know, working online, you see the space better for people who are quieter, right? So you start becoming more inclusive by actually pausing and saying, let's go around the room. Or you say things like, okay, you don't have to ask a question on turn on, well.

Sadaf (43:24.344)
Yeah.

Sadaf (43:32.877)
Mm.

Sadaf (43:37.251)
Yeah.

Sadaf (43:43.916)
Hmm.

Naila (43:48.754)
turn on your camera, but there's chat. You can raise your hand, you can do chat. There's so many different ways for now people who are quieter to be part of the conversation. I also noticed, because I work on a global role, so all the way from Peru down to Australia, you notice the cultural differences as well. So culturally, some communities are quieter than the others, right? So you will see, you know, Latin America might be louder than, you know,

Sadaf (43:51.469)
No.

Sadaf (44:06.956)
Hmm.

Sadaf (44:10.924)
Yeah. Yeah.

Naila (44:16.698)
Southeast Asia or Africa. So you're starting to look at those kind of inclusive ways of communicating as well. Yeah. So in terms of the next decade, Sadaf, I know we're going to, we just touched upon this. What do you hope to see for the introverted leaders? But I also want to know, where are you going to take Quiet Thrivers?

Sadaf (44:17.346)
versus the Asians, yes.

Sadaf (44:24.396)
Absolutely.

Naila (44:41.274)
I love the brand. just love it. So where are you going to? What's your hope for Quiet Thrive as well? So.

Sadaf (44:47.608)
So I kind of envision it as a safe space for introverted leaders. I consciously don't use the word community because it ends up feeling that suddenly all of us have to sit together and talk about how we're feeling. So it's a bit counterintuitive to being an introvert. Yeah.

Naila (45:05.916)
fair.

Naila (45:09.276)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (45:10.043)
It's like a book club, you know, where we just all sit around and read and we don't talk about.

Sadaf (45:16.756)
Exactly. You can sit in your corner and read the book and send yourself notes. So that's why don't want to, but I just want it to be a space where we get to talk about these things as much as we can. People find that they can connect and, you know, eventually find a coach for themselves or connect to a fellow into where to learn from them that how did they overcome their struggles and barriers.

Quinn Harrington (45:20.131)
Yes.

Sadaf (45:45.167)
So that's the way I see it. I just want to bring to light and make it more transparent. And I want introverts to stop feeling that they're misunderstood or they're victims or anything, because that's not going to help them to grow. It's an unnecessary crutch that they would like to hold on to.

Quinn Harrington (45:58.235)
That's right.

Quinn Harrington (46:04.27)
Right. You know, I think breaking out my crystal ball, I kind of wonder like in 15, 20 years when we all have avatars, AI enabled avatars, we could be whatever personality we want. So if you want to project, you know, some badassery, you can. If you want to be, you know, calm, cool and collected, that's also an option for you.

Naila (46:04.422)
Lovely.

Naila (46:17.362)
true.

Sadaf (46:23.826)
You

Naila (46:23.952)
Yeah

Sadaf (46:30.35)
It's not too distant from what we see right now. So a lot of the tech people, like whether it is Elon Musk or that show that used to come on TV, Big Bang Theory. Right, so it was very clear the tech geniuses or the nerds, if I want, I don't want to use the word, but I don't know how else to say it. But the nerds,

Naila (46:46.695)
Mm-hmm.

Quinn Harrington (46:46.734)
Yes.

Naila (46:56.242)
Yeah.

Sadaf (46:58.626)
They used to play all of these games and they had these crazy avatars about these Dungeons and Dragons and all these strange games that they used to play online. And that's the way they would want to see themselves as. That's the reality they liked versus them being in social situations where they felt awkward. And now all the nerds are taking revenge over the world, but that's separate.

Quinn Harrington (47:25.636)
Hahaha

Sadaf (47:27.982)
Bigger topic.

Quinn Harrington (47:29.034)
That's an American movie, Revenge of the Nerds. So, who's laughing now? All right, Nailah, you wanna take us to the wrap?

Naila (47:35.239)
you

Naila (47:39.834)
Yeah, so do we want to wrap up and if there was any last advice that you have before we wrap up that if you got any advice for any leaders whether they're introvert, extrovert, if they're trying to stay true to themselves in this world, in the corporate world, what's that one advice you want to give them?

Sadaf (48:01.654)
say find your anchor. Anchor. Okay whatever works. Whatever works. So find your anchor, know your values, know your headlines, know your boundaries because in times of crises you'll get to hold on to them. So it's important to keep revisiting them because they're not going to stay the same all throughout your life.

Quinn Harrington (48:04.506)
Find your what? Anchor, okay. I thought you said anger. I was like, oh, this conversation just took a totally different... Yes.

Naila (48:31.634)
Lovely.

Quinn Harrington (48:31.93)
You know, I read this book a long time ago called Why CEOs Fail. one thing that, the biggest takeaway was, is there's like 11 personality disraylers. And those personality traits serve you throughout your career until you sort of reach a position where it doesn't anymore. So if you're like,

you know, extrovert and you make, you know, decisions based on your gut, you you rely on charisma, you tend to go your own direction and expect people to follow you. That will serve you to a point to where you reach a position where all of a sudden, relying on that your instinct and your gut, all of a sudden, now you're making bad decisions that could, you know, crater a company. So on the flip side,

Sadaf (49:16.131)
Yes.

Sadaf (49:25.538)
Yes.

Quinn Harrington (49:29.292)
If you're an introvert and a deep thinker and always looking at, looking 10 miles down the road, that can also become a derailer for you because maybe you're taking too long to make a decision or you miss out on an opportunity that you need to react quickly to, or maybe there's an opportunity where you really need to

Sadaf (49:41.528)
Mmm.

Quinn Harrington (49:59.205)
to bring your full presence on stage, you know, to an event, but your sort of fear or reluctance to do that, you know, either by trying to be genuine or authentic, can also become a derailer for you. So I would say that if you're introverted, embrace it, just don't let it limit you as you...

Sadaf (50:02.254)
Hmm.

Sadaf (50:27.073)
Less.

Quinn Harrington (50:28.147)
know, are progressing throughout your life and your career.

Sadaf (50:31.863)
Nice.

Naila (50:32.078)
Lovely. We should take that advice. I should reflect on it.

Sadaf (50:34.934)
Agreed.

Quinn Harrington (50:37.411)
I was just talking for myself. I mean, I forgot you guys were on the call, so... on this podcast.

Naila (50:42.13)
Well that is the wrap of our episode Now Near in the Future. You can find us on all our usual platforms Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon and YouTube. Follow us on Instagram at Now Near Future or visit us at NowNearFuture.com

Quinn Harrington (51:02.946)
Easy for you to say. If you love the podcast, subscribe, leave a review, tell your friends, and if you don't, we'll just keep talking to ourselves, which to be fair, we're pretty good at.

Naila (51:04.507)
Hehehehe

Sadaf (51:04.718)
You

Naila (51:14.866)
Sadaf, just for everyone, how do they find you on socials or any other platform?

Sadaf (51:23.406)
So I have a website, it's called quietthrivers.com. They can find me with the same Instagram handle and I'm there on LinkedIn as well, Sadaf Javed or Quiet Thrivers. So the same everywhere.

Naila (51:38.074)
Lovely. But thank you for joining us. I think we might have another connection later on in the future if we want to delve into leadership and any other topic that we may have. But thank you for all the insights that you've given and being an advocate for those leaders who don't speak up as much.

Sadaf (51:57.518)
Thank you so much.

Quinn Harrington (51:57.934)
Yeah, we definitely need to have you back for season two.

Naila (52:00.656)
Yes.

Sadaf (52:01.358)
I'm in. And this will make it a bit controversial next time about leadership. Great. Thank you.

Naila (52:05.7)
Yes! Great!

Quinn Harrington (52:06.074)
As always, stay curious and keep dreaming.

Naila (52:12.783)
and we shall see you in the future everybody.